A step by step first exposure to advaita
Through a dialogue of 1008 entries
Important
note: The following rambling
conversation has been composed as an attempt to bring to the lay reader some truths
of advaita, without venturing into long passages. So a conscious effort has
been made to reduce
each bit of the conversation
to a single line (with just eight
exceptions). It has turned out to be a no-holds-barred dialogue, long
and continuous. In the modern days of desire
to learn ‘without tears’, this perhaps would carry a message to those of us who, inspite of their
intelligence in everything pertaining to the world, think of themselves as
dummies in advaita. Incidentally I imposed on myself another restriction,
namely I will not exceed 1008 entries in this conversation. And thus it has been a useful ‘nidhidhyAsana’
(Contemplation on what I have learnt) exercise for me. And one may notice, the
whole treatment goes
in slow motion, step by step. Concepts are brought in, one step at a time.
I think this is good for a purposeful nidhidhyAsanA, especially for a beginner
on the spiritual path. I apologise for not breaking it into smaller sections or
chapters, because the continuous flow of thoughts would not admit breaks.
My PraNAms to all the Great Gurus of the world and the
Guru of Gurus, Shri dakshhiNAmUrti.
V. Krishnamurthy
A step by step first exposure to advaita
Through a dialogue of 1008 single lines
1. Shishhya:
2. Guru : JnAna-vairAgya-siddhir-astu (May you achieve
Wisdom and Dispassion)
3. S: I wish the painfulness in the world were unreal.
4. G: What makes you wish so?
5. S: Because I feel the pain.
6. G: Who is this that feels the pain?
7. S: I, myself.
8. G: Did you say ‘yourself’ or ‘your self’?
9. S: What is the difference?
10. G: There is a lot of difference. But please answer my
question.
11. S: I don’t see
any difference.
12. G: That is the problem; in fact it is a disease called
‘samsAra’.
13. S: I don’t see it as a disease, but I see you are
hinting at something. Can you explain?
14. G: Your self is different from yourself.
15. S: I see you are referring to that something called my self, which is not
myself ?
16. G: You may better call it your Self, with a capital
‘S’.
17. S: Where is it? I have not seen it or felt it.
18. G: You have never seen it because it is you yourself.
19. S: Just now you said there is a difference between
myself and my Self.
20. G: But you said you don’t see any difference.
21. S: So what is right? You are confusing me.
22. G: Good, that is where you have to start. State your
confusion clearly.
23. S: What is the difference between myself
and my Self?
24. G: One is perishable, the other is not.
25. S: I see. Yes, myself is
perishable. But I am not clear why my Self is not perishable.
26. G: You are jumping the line.You have not yet accepted
there is a Self other than yourself.
27. S: I thought you said that my Self is myself.
28. G: It depends on what you mean by the words ‘myself’
and ‘my Self’.
29. S: Are you not
playing with words?
30. G: No. ‘yourself’ is what you
ordinarily think you are. ‘your Self’ is what you are.
31. S: Then what I am is my Self. Is that right?
32. G: Yes, that is the final teaching of the Upanishads.
Better to call it ‘The Self’.
33. S: What difference does it make to my daily life?
34. G: It makes this difference; if you don’t absorb this
teaching, you are bound to suffer.
35. S: Are you referring to ‘me’ or ,
‘my Self’ – which you are calling ‘The Self’.
36. G: The Self will never suffer; it is you who will
suffer.
37. S: I am still not clear why you are making this
distinction between ‘me’ and ‘my Self’.
38. G: When I talk to you as ‘you’ I am only talking to
you as a body, with mind & intellect.
39. S: And in the other case?
40. G: I am referring to the Self or the Atman that is permanently
within you – not the body, mind or intellect.
41. S: Is it then the Atman that is leaving the body at death?
42. G: Atman does not leave anything or come to
anything.
43. S: Then what is it that leaves the body?
44. G: It is the manifestation of the Atman in the body,
that leaves the body.
45. S: Where is this Atman manifested in my body?
46. G: It is not a physical entity that can be assigned a
location in the body.
47. S: Then is it in my mind, brain or my
intellect?
48. G: In one sense it is in none of these; in another
sense it is everywhere.
49. S: How can that be?
50. G: Because without the Atman, neither the mind nor the
intellect has any locus standi.
51. S: Why did you
now leave out the body and the brain?
52. G:The mind and the intellect
are more subtle than the visibly perishing body and brain.
53. S: Even those subtle things (mind and intellect) –
can’t they subsist
without the Atman?
54. G: No. Without the presence of the Self or Atman, nothing in this world can subsist.
55. S: If nothing can subsist without the Atman, we must be able to
feel Atman
everywhere.
56. G: That is the point of the teaching. See Atman
everywhere.
57. S: How do I see it? Nobody seems to be seeing it?
58. G: This is where the subject of Vedanta comes in.
59. S: So is it the contention of Vedanta that Atman is
everywhere?
60. G: It is not just a contention. It is the Truth, the
Reality.
61. S: How can it be proved to be the Truth?
62. G: What kind of proof are you looking for?
63. S: Of course, a rational, scientific proof.
64. G: But rationality and science are only products of
the mind.
65. S: What is wrong with it?
66. G: Nothing is wrong; but the Truth of the Self is
beyond the mind.
67. S: On what authority are you saying this?
68. G: On the authority of the Vedas and Upanishads.
69. S: OK. Let the Truth be beyond the mind; how then do we ever know
the Truth of the Self?
70. G: By experiencing it.
71. S: What kind of experience? By the mind? You already said the body is perishable.
72. G: Mind also is perishable, though it takes a longer
time. But the perishable mind serves as a useful tool.
73. S: Tool for what?
To know the truth of the Self?
74. G: Yes. The perishable mind has to be used to seek the
Imperishable Self.
75. S. There seems to be a logical fallacy here –
Perishable thing seeking the Imperishable!
76. G. ‘Seems to be’ – that is right; the logical fallacy
vanishes when you go deeper.
77. S: I don’t understand.
78. G: The Perishable perishes in the Imperishable.
79. S: Looks like a
conundrum.
80. G: Yes, scriptural statements will look like
conundrums. We have to meditate on them.
81. S: I have heard this word ‘meditation’ all the time.
Is this what meditation is all about?
82. G: In one sense, yes. But let us take up the subject
of meditation at a later stage.
83. S: Then please explain to me how ‘The Perishable
perishes in the Imperishable’.
84. G: Like salt in water.
85. S: Then there would be no more salt. So does the
Perishable vanish? Does only the Imperishable remain?
86. G: You got the point. The mind seeking to know the
Truth, effaces itself, and ..
87. S: Becomes the Truth!
88. G: I like students who can comprehend so quickly!
89. S: But the whole thing looks like a made-up mathematical
puzzle.
90. G: Puzzle certainly it is. It is the Grand puzzle of
Life.
91. S: But I don’t see where all this leads to, in real
life.
92. G: Say ‘in the reality of life’.
93. S: In the reality of life, I see pain and suffering
all around.
94. G: Also some happiness.
95. S: Yes, happiness also; but happiness is so few and
far between that it never surfaces.
96. G: Let us analyse this little happiness before we go
to the ‘suffering’ part.
97. S: I am happy whenever I get what I wanted.
98. G: Were you happy when you wanted it?
99. S: Not fully. But I was excited at the thought of my
pursuing what I wanted.
100.
G: Were you happy
before you started wanting it?
101.
S: I don’t
understand the question; I think the question does not arise.
102.
G: Yes, you are
right. Happiness was not in question then .
103.
S: ‘Then’ means?
104.
G: Before you
started wanting it, you were not unhappy, because there was no want.
105.
S: I think you
are trying to trip me by quibbling.
106.
G: No, I am
saying, the moment you wanted something, happiness receded from you.
107.
S: But you are
putting words in my mouth.
108.
G: What words?
109.
S: You are making
me accept that I was happy before I started wanting something.
110.
G:
Certainly. Is there any doubt on that?
111.
S: But I had
other wants.
112.
G: Let us go to
the situation when you had your first want.
113.
S: There is no such
situation.
114.
G: But you said
you were happy sometimes.
115.
S: Yes, life is a
mixture of happiness and unhappiness.
116.
G: Analyse how
you were happy when you were happy.
117.
S: I did not
allow my ‘want’ thoughts to disturb me when I was happy.
118.
G: You were happy,
and the fact of
not ‘wanting’ anything, continued your happiness.
119.
S: Well, I think
that may be the right way to put it.
120.
G: Thus you
started from the position of happiness, and a ripple of a ‘want’ disturbed it.
121.
S: What are you
leading me to?
122.
G: It is ‘want’
that disturbs the happiness which is with you.
123.
S: So if I am to
continue to be happy, I should not ‘want’ anything. Is that what you are
driving at?
124.
G: You are right
on the dot.
125.
S: But it is an
impossible task not to want anything.
126.
G: First accept
it in theory.
127.
S: In other
words, it is ‘want’ or ‘desire’ that makes me unhappy.
128.
G: The man who
has no wants or desires is perfectly happy.
129.
S: What has all
this to do with Vedanta which talks about the Self?
130.
G: Everything. We
have to analyse who is it that wants and makes himself
unhappy.
131.
S: I guess it is myself.
132.
G: I am glad you
used the right word – ‘myself’.
133.
S: I miss the
point.
134.
G: The Self has
no wants and is always full of happiness or bliss.
135.
S: You are
asserting it without ascribing any reason.
136.
G: Because the
definition of the Self according to the scriptures implies that.
137.
S: What is the
definition?
138.
G: The Self is
Consciousness. The Self is Bliss.
139.
S. This does not
make any sense to me.
140.
G: That is why we
are going through this dialogue.
141.
S: If the Self is
Bliss, then I should not have any suffering.
142.
G: True. You have
no suffering.
143.
S: Guruji, it is
not enough for you to say so. I must be able to say I have no suffering.
144.
G: Who feels the
suffering?
145.
S: I, certainly.
146.
G: Not so fast.
In order to understand, let us take a simple example of a suffering.
147.
S: Alright.
Suppose somebody pinches me. I feel the pinch. Don’t I?
148.
G: Wait. Somebody
pinches you. Strictly speaking, it is the body that is pinched.
149.
S: But I feel it,
because my mind recognises the pinching of my body.
150.
G: So it is your
mind that should suffer, not you.
151.
S: But my mind is
mine.
152.
G: That is the
point. Your mind is yours, it is not you.
153.
S: Are you not just hairsplitting?
154.
G: No, the entire
Vedanta depends on this. Your mind is not you.
155.
S: But when my
mind suffers, I suffer with it.
156.
G: Vedanta says:
Let the mind suffer or experience. Don’t suffer or experience with it.
157.
S: It is a tall
order.
158.
G: Who said it is
not? The tall order is to bring your happiness back.
159.
S: So Vedanta
does not seem to remove my suffering; it allows my suffering to stay.
160.
G: Vedanta
intends to insulate you from your suffering.
161.
S: What does that
mean?
162.
G: That which
suffers is dissociated from you, the Self.
163.
S: But in that
case I have to be the Self.
164.
G: Exactly. “Be your
Self” say the scriptures. Then there is no suffering.
165.
S: The remedy
turns out to be more severe than the disease of suffering.
166.
G: All that
Vedanta tells you is to change your attitude to all experience.
167.
S: When you say
‘experience’ do you mean both suffering and happiness?
168.
G: Yes, whether
it is happiness or otherwise, it is your attitude that is important.
169.
S: Does it mean
then, that I should simply be impervious to all experience?
170.
G: Yes, that is
the Gita teaching. You are not the experiencer.
171.
S: According to
Vedanta, then who is the experiencer?
172.
G: The
experiencer is the one who has identified with his body, mind, intellect (BMI).
173.
S: Who is that
one?
174.
G: If there is
one such.
175.
S: It is not
clear to me what you are saying.
176.
G: If you don’t
identify yourself with your BMI, you are not the experiencer.
177.
S: Who is this
‘you’ that is being talked about now?
178.
G: That is a good
question. We have to
start afresh now.
179.
S: Where do you
want to start?
180.
G: From the BMI. The BMI is your outer personality.
181.
S: I see where
you are going. The inner personality is the Self .
Right?
182.
G. Yes. But the
Gita says there are two such selves (Purushhas).
183.
S: What? I
thought I was only one person. How can there be two selves for me?
184.
G: There is only
one Self. But we make the mistake of thinking that our BMI is
the Self.
185.
S: Earlier we
said that the BMI is not the Self.
186.
G: That is right.
But almost all of us all the time make the mistake.
187.
S: Make the
mistake of what?
188.
G: Of thinking
that our BMI is the Self.
189.
S: So what?
190.
G: And that mistake
originates a false self for us. This false self is the other Self.
191.
S: In other
words, we ourselves create a false self for each of us.
192.
G: Yes. That false self, is
termed the Perishable Self.
193.
S: Then the real
Self is the Imperishable Self.
194.
G: Thus there are
two, the kshhara purushha
(perishable self) and the akshhara purushha (imperishable Self).
195.
S: So the kshhara
purushha
is the result of identification with BMI.
196.
G: And the akshhara-purushha
is the Self, that is Consciousness, Bliss.
197.
S: Now tell me
who is the experiencer.
198.
G: The kshhara purushha
is the experiencer. Incidentally the kshhara-purushha is also known by the term jIva.
199.
S: In other
words, he who has identified with BMI is the experiencer.
200.
G: Perfectly.
Vedanta says: You are not the experiencer.
Copyright
© V.
Krishnamurthy Aug.18, 2004